Author Topic: Super Scary (Be Critical Please)  (Read 6475 times)

AndyinSwindon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • When Hell Freezes Over...At least we can skate!
Re: Super Scary (Be Critical Please)
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2017, 04:36:54 pm »
Precisely what Black said - especially the point about the coach not being attentive.  I read in another post that you are possibly not very assertive, but never forget, you are paying for a service and deserve value for money.

I have just moved up to LTS level 4 (NOT Nisa Level 4, eh Beginner ;-) ), and it has taken me 2 months.  One or two in my group moved up quicker, a few are moving a lot more slowly, but I am in no rush, I want to get it right, at my speed.

I also learn a lot from some of the online sites such as Howtohockey.com, and whilst I am aware that you can develop bad techniques if you go it alone, I back up what I learn in those videos with learn to play hockey lessons and lots of conversations with more advanced skaters from both the hockey and figure disciplines.

The other day whilst trying crossovers for the first time, I held the hand of a much better skater whilst I tried them out.  I don't need them for my LTS, but they would be useful to me in hockey, and I wanted to start having a go.  I'm a 45yo male, and was in helmet and elbow pads, holding a young ladys hand - no shame, no embarrassment - and no bruises!  And it helped.  If you need to hold the odd hand here and there, don't be afraid to do it (just make sure they are able to hold their own on the ice so that you don't pull them down!).
Started skating 07.01.17
Currently working through NISA LTS Levels.
Currently wobbling through hockey LTP sessions.

kenzie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Super Scary (Be Critical Please)
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2017, 11:24:49 am »
Wow, I did not expect this many replies, so thanks guys. I will reply, but just a bit short of time at the moment.

I'll address all the common points, and then I'll reply to the more specific ones, but I really just wanted to say I appreciate all the feedback.

One thing I did do this weekend is buy wax laces, but they're so much shorter than the one's which came with the skates originally, and so I wonder if maybe I was sold the wrong length? I'm not too sure.

One thing that has been mentioned is insoles. I'm thinking about superfeet yellows, and wondered if that would hurt with the arch pain I get? It feels like cramp.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 12:43:16 pm by kenzie »

kenzie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Super Scary (Be Critical Please)
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2017, 01:26:54 pm »
Apologies in advance for the long post, but I really wanted to address all the points everyone has made. Also, I've cut some people's post's down, because obviously I don't need to repost every word people have made.

1. Kudos for summoning the courage to post the videos especially if you are not particularly self confident - that's a lot more than I could do.  But in all honestly, you really have nothing to worry about :-)

Thanks Andy, it was difficult, but I figured it would be easier than trying to describe my issues.

A young lad use to skate with his feet angled like yours. Then someone else tightened his laces for him, and they became straight.

That said the one thing that I immediately noticed was that your skates looked loose and you were not  straight on the blade. Now I'm saying that as someone who has never used hockey skates but others have mentioned it too so it may be something to consider.

I see what you mean when you say you see your right foot leaning. It's not very clear in the videos, but are your skates tied all the way up, with the right tightness? In most cases when your feet are leaning inwards, it's because of poorly fitted skates and/or laces that are tied too loose. You can experiment with the way you tie your skates, or ask your coach/instructor for help.

If it's the skates, and tightening causes you ankle pain, you could try silicon 'socks' like bunga pads, which let you fasten tighter but without pressure on the sticky out bits.

8. Another small tip - if your feet are hurting, try wax laces if you aren't already.  My skates were agony (besides the breaking in) until I tried wax laces.  They make it easier to vary the pressure around various points of the feet.

I used to tighten my laces as tight as they could go. But I got unbearable cramp-like pain in both my arches. So, I started skating with them looser, and now I usually only get it in my left, and only occasionally in my right. It seems as though if I have them tight then I hurt the arches, but if I have them loose, I tend to angle my feet weirdly.

I've got some wax laces, so I'm hoping they help, although I feel as though they are too short. And I'm looking into insoles now.

Just out of interest where did you get the skates from? Are they definitely the right size as often people buy skates in the same size as their normal shoes and that doesn't work. If you want to progress then it's worth going to a really good skate shop and having them measure your feet and check if you need specialist insoles etc. This is especially true if you have problems with your ankle as you want it to be properly supported.

7.  Are your skates fitting properly?  If you have cramps in the arches, it may pay to get some insoles.

I went back to the shop I got the skates from, it is a rinkside one, and asked them to check the fit, I got a different person, and she was pretty convinced the skates fit me well. She said the issue was with low arches, as she observed me walk and stand in my skates. She recommended that I try insoles.

You eventually get to know just how they should feel, and find that once you get the laces right, it makes things so much easier. 

I just wish I knew how they were supposed to feel.

You do indeed walk rather than skate. Most people do walk fat first, although a few pick up gliding from the start. I'll give you a little lesson on edges. (Apologies if you know this.)

2. I see what you mean about the 'walking'.  You are literally picking your feet up, which at that speed, and with your balance still honing in, is making you very unstable, and so you are probably very conscious about your feet going out from underneath you.

It's just that I cannot seem to stop walking. I'll start gliding for maybe 3 strides, and then go right back to walking. And I am pretty conscious about slipping over.

Thanks for the info on edges Leif.

3. One thing I learned very early on from one of my rink buddies, was to get a good knee bend.  This lowers your centre of gravity, and consequently increases your stability.  It also acts as a natural balancing mechanism for your body. 

And as Andy says, a knee bend is important. It makes you more stable, and skate better.

I think I sit on my heels, as I often find myself losing my balance and falling backwards. So when I bend my knees I have to slouch my shoulders forward as well, otherwise I end up going backwards. Not sure how to stop that.

One thing I did notice from the clips is that your feet are quite wide apart and are are bit pronated so you are on inside edges.  If you're gliding forward on two feet you should try to be on flat edges so the blade at 90 degrees to the ice, and try to get your feet closer together.  Skating is ultimately based on balancing on one foot and that's hard unless that foot is under you. Best of luck with your skating.

So I need to stand on the flat, and not lean my blades in? And I need to bring my legs closer together? It sounds so simple, but my brain can't seem to get it right.

Thank you. I really want to improve.

6.  Another tip I was given early on was my foot angle.  I see your feet are almost parallel, which in turn is giving you very little edge to push with.  My stance is pretty much with my feet at an alternating 10 and 2 position.  Again - knuckle dragging hockey ape, but it gives me a good solid push for stroking.

They seem to do that without any input from me. I cannot keep them angled, for some reason, they like to be parallel.

Have they had you stand on the ice, with your heels together, toes pointing outward and march on the spot? You start moving forward slowly without trying when you do that.

Do that with your knees bent a bit, avoiding leaning forward and sticking your rear out.

Work on gliding on one foot for longer before putting the other one down. However long you can do that for, build it up, a half or a whole second at a time.

Once a bit more comfortable on one foot at a time, work on bringing your feet closer together after pushing. This allows a stronger push away.

At the same time, work on the knee bend to generate a stronger push. I used to think in terms of pushing my hips down toward the ice as you don't want to hunch over too much.

Also, I noticed you're rushing a bit - when you lift your foot, you try to put it down and lift the other foot as fast as possible. Instead, when you push off, try to keep your free leg off the ice for x counts, then put it down right next to the leg your standing on, so that your skates touch. Glide with your feet together like that for another x counts, push off with your other leg and repeat.

Thank you guys for the advice on how to build from basic movement, to gliding. If I'm holding someone's hand I can maybe glide for 2 seconds, but on my own, I can't glide on one foot at all really, maybe half a second. I also, find I can push off with my right foot, weight on my left, but I cannot do the opposite very well.  So I can do some one foot gliding, but that's about it.

is your weight above the leg you're standing on? are you bending your knees? is your upper body nice and steady or are your arms flying around?

I do find I stick my rear out and hunch over if I try to bend my knees, is there anyway to stop that? Otherwise, I tend to lose my balance and almost fall backwards.

My arms move about a lot, so next time I'll try to control that a bit better.

As I said before, I can have all my weight on my left leg, but it's more of a struggle with my right.

Lastly, don't get discouraged when you feel like you aren't progressing as fast as you'd like, even if you feel like you're getting a lot of practice. Ice skating is a very "slow" sport in the sense that it takes a long time to learn a new skill/element, which can be incredibly frustrating at times.

I think you are being hard on yourself as everyone learns to skate at different rates and as an adult the fear of falling (even just subconsciously) is much greater.

4.  Some people just take inherently longer to get used to the zero friction of the ice.  A few of us on the LTS classes very quickly got used to the surface, whereas a few people that started at the same time are still clinging to the boards.  Everyone learns at their own pace, don't punish yourself if you take a little longer than some of the others. 

10.  If you are worried about falling over - consider a helmet and padding.  It might just give you the confidence to push a little harder and reduce the fear of injury (see previous point).

I think this is what is actually most hard for me. I am used to picking most things up with ease, and ice skating is simply not one of these things. I do tend to get very frustrated, because I want to be good, like right now, even though I know that it takes time and effort.

And yes, I'm terrified of falling, and I think that is a big issue for me. I just don't have the confidence necessary to move across the ice with ease, because every time I think I have it, I almost lose my balance, and that knocks my confidence.

I am tempted to get some elbow and knee pads, and possibly a helmet. I'm not too worried about relying on these, as I want to play hockey anyway, so it's not like I'll have to skate without padding, unless I decide to worry about figure skating.

If you can push onto alternate skates and glide more when you are holding someone's hand, it sounds like there is a confidence issue too.
You could try skating more with someone, and really learn to feel what you are doing different, and being aware of how it feels to transfer you weight onto each foot and aiming to glide for longer.

I'm definitely lacking confidence. I have two people I can skate with, but I feel worried about frustrating them, or holding them back. When they're "looking after me", I'm progressing, and they most likely aren't, and then I feel guilty.

But I like the idea of having less and less contact, and putting a glove between us etc.

What exercises have you been given in your LTS class - lemons? swizzles?

This is another problem, we get given a bunch of exercises, but then basically no time to practice them, whilst being shown.

We've been shown forward and backward lemons, "penguin" walking, and been shown about 4 different stops (snow plough, hockey, a drag one, and a tee stop). But I can't get enough speed to even worry about stopping just yet.

If you stand in normal shoes with feet shoulder-width apart and bend your knees (not necessarily a full squat, about halfway), can you keep your shoulders, hips, knees and feet in alignment or do your knees drop inwards? Where do you feel sore after skating?

I think my knees are fine on dry land. I squat at the gym, and never have any problems with alignment. I don't tend to feel sore anywhere yet, just my feet.

I would also practice those balance exercises at home, where you stand on one foot for longer and longer, then move to doing that with your eyes closed

You can also practise that holding on to the barrier at the rink, but dont close your eyes there!

I think this is something I'm definitely going to try. I think a lot of my issues do come from a problem with balance.

- You've got the gumption to actually get out on the ice; some people can't.
- You are not holding onto the barrier like it's your lifeline.
- Good posture & balance; you are not looking down, and you look reasonably stable.
- 3rd lesson, cool; everybody starts somewhere and progresses differently. Skating takes patient practice. Lots of it.
- Despite what you've said, You are skating.
- Skating is great exercise, focus on that; all the rest will sort itself out.
- Cramp in the foot arch; try arch support insoles, like Superfeet, Sole slim sport.
- You're in a group lesson that you paid for right? Your coach doesn't seem to be that attentive.
- You don't seem to glide that much; what's the grind on your blades? How roughed up is the ice?
- Are you happy out there on the ice?

- Thanks, I enjoy the ice when I'm not getting frustrated.
- I did hold on for so long, but I figured I'd never progress if I didn't at least attempt to move across.
- Everyone drilled into me that I shouldn't look down, but thank you. It's nice to have some positives.
- I know, I guess I just thought I'd be able to skate a little by now.
- Well thank you :).
- I'm looking into yellow superfeet at the moment, would you recommend those for my issues?
- The videos were during the practice after the group lesson. Basically, we get 30 mins of learn to skate and then 30 mins practice time. But to be honest, I think he has to many people to observe us all properly, and hasn't really given me any feedback on my skating just yet.
- I'm afraid I don't know the grind, I just handed them over and got them done at the rink. I wouldn't know where to begin with that. The ice was pretty roughed up during the videos, as we'd all been going over the same patches.
- Mostly.

5.  I am not a 'pretty' skater by any means.  My coach glides across the ice with grace and poise, in comparison I am a knuckle dragging hockey ape.  What are your aims?  Figure skating? Recreation? Hockey?

Recreational hockey is the long-term goal. But for now, the ability to go forward and backwards would be excellent.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 01:37:00 pm by kenzie »

spiralstatic

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Super Scary (Be Critical Please)
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2017, 03:26:11 pm »
One thing that has been mentioned is insoles. I'm thinking about superfeet yellows, and wondered if that would hurt with the arch pain I get? It feels like cramp.
I find mine really comfortable and they definitely give more arch support than stock skate insoles. Because they do take up a little bit of space (which was actually the main reason I bought them haha), I'd recommend looking for a store where you can try them out before you buy. I've heard they've got a great return policy as well, so you could wear them for a while and if the pain continues or gets worse, they'd still give you your money back. I think.

kenzie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Super Scary (Be Critical Please)
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2017, 04:00:57 pm »
I find mine really comfortable and they definitely give more arch support than stock skate insoles. Because they do take up a little bit of space (which was actually the main reason I bought them haha), I'd recommend looking for a store where you can try them out before you buy. I've heard they've got a great return policy as well, so you could wear them for a while and if the pain continues or gets worse, they'd still give you your money back. I think.

That's good to know.

Yeah, I think it is 60 days. So I'm very tempted to give them a go. I've got nothing to lose.

Leif

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 643
Re: Super Scary (Be Critical Please)
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2017, 07:40:22 pm »
Hello Kenzie

Keep at it, you will get there. Sometimes I have gone at something continually until I got it, wondering why others learnt much quicker, sometimes it came quick.

Yellow Superfeeties
I bought a pair. They raised my heels a bit, and pulled my feet back, ruining the fit of the skates. Also the arch position was not good for me. I do not use them. They do help some people.

Falling.
I've been there, it destroyed my confidence. In my case my skates were badly sharpened, I'd catch the heel, feet go forwards, backside downwards, ouch. Generally you use the ball and middle of the foot, less so the heel. Your sharpen might be fine, but if you want a resharpen, Skate Station are very good, I've even checked two examples with a gauge. If you had a Guildford rink sharpen, it's likely a .5" as that is the shop standard.  I have 5/8", a bit flatter, a bit better for less experienced skaters. That said, a newbie I know has 3/8" and loves it.

Protection
A basic helmet costs under £20, I'm a big wuss.  :D I have elbow pads but they just stop bruises. The padded shorts are my favourite item of protective clothing.

Leif

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 643
Re: Super Scary (Be Critical Please)
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2017, 07:46:46 pm »
Regarding knee bend, you can see examples of the hockey position on you tube. To be honest it took me ages to get a better position with knees bent. I think it comes with practice.

AndyinSwindon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • When Hell Freezes Over...At least we can skate!
Re: Super Scary (Be Critical Please)
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2017, 08:37:26 pm »
Just a couple of additions to the above points raised :-

I use the CCM custom insoles in my Tacks 4092's.  They get you to stand on a heat sensitive pad which maps out your foot profile, and then you order the appropriate pack.  Worked wonders for me.  I have heard positive and negative reviews of the speedplates / superfeet, mainly to do with their longevity not being all it could be.

With regards to falling, a few weeks ago I had a sleepless (as in not one minutes worth) night prior to my lesson, and so sensing that I might be a bit overtired, I wore my hockey helmet.  That was the week we started moving two foot turns, and I went flying back and smacked the back of my head on the ice - it hurt enough with the helmet on, let alone what would have happened without, so from then on, I always wear my helmet to a lesson.  It's a very sound investment, and if you one day hope to play rec hockey, then you have a piece of kit ready for it.
Started skating 07.01.17
Currently working through NISA LTS Levels.
Currently wobbling through hockey LTP sessions.

kenzie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Super Scary (Be Critical Please)
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2017, 09:32:42 pm »
Well I didn't realise, but we were testing tonight, and I passed SkateUK level 1, so that's exciting! LONG way to go, but still... Yay!

I tried out the new laces and the yellow superfeet, both my feet were agony, so I think my laces are too tight across the midsection. I honestly think I bought the wrong size laces, so I'm going to try and get some longer ones so I can play with them a bit.

I also tried out knee pads, and they helped massively. I fell, on purpose, and didn't feel a thing, so that was good. It's just falling backwards that terrifies me.

Also, I always thought you pushed with your back foot, but today, in practice, a load of people said you bend into it with the front leg, and ignore the back, is that true?

Leif, how often should you sharpen your skates? Because I am tempted to get them redone. To see if it'll help.

Andy, I'd get custom insoles, but my skates are such low end I don't think it's worth it. To be honest, I do wonder if my skates fit. But I don't know. I don't want to throw £100 away if I can help it.

I'm glad you're okay after a bad fall. My problem is, I don't want to look like someone who has all the gear and no idea, so getting a hockey helmet does worry me when I can barely skate!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 09:35:12 pm by kenzie »

transmissionoftheflame

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2079
Re: Super Scary (Be Critical Please)
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2017, 01:26:23 am »
Regarding the skate fit it is so hard to tell over the internet whether they are right for you, but they should not be agony.  It may be they are the right size but the wrong shape for your foot.  I don't know much about hockey skates but certainly figure skates vary a lot in shape, you either get lucky or have to try on a few different types.  If the insoles fit snugly into the skates then take them out and place your feet onto them - with the heel in place, if the toes go nearly to the end of the insole, falling short by a small number or mm, then they are probably the right length.  If the toes fall well short or overhang they are probably too big or too small respectively.  If you can, try to find a more experienced skater with hockey skates and see if they can have a look at you and tell you what they think about the size and shape.
I'm not sure I understand the point about pushing with your front or back foot/leg.  Your feet will/should usually be parallel when starting a push.  Whether going forwards or backwards, you should push to the side as much as/more than pushing back, but as you glide forward/backward your pushing foot will naturally get left behind you by which I mean where you were rather than where you are travelling to.  You bend BOTH legs to push.  After the push you extend the pushing leg, and if you want you can come up in the knee on the skating leg too but then you must always rebend for the next push - or you can simply stay down - coming up would probably be more figure skating style.
Although on a curve, here's a nice vid of bend-and-push: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXFAjcVYOME
Here's one of forward skating in a straight line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6hPVckcdx0
Here's a good one on gliding in a straight line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKCmxOisO78
Those two are elite level competitors so most of us won't be able to do even the basics as well as they can but it's a good clear picture of what you're aiming at.
I sharpen every 30 hours of use, roughly, and get a fairly light grind - little and often works best for me.  You can go a lot longer but your edges may start to slip.  I wouldn't leave it more than 60 hours.  If you can't remember how long you've skated on them since the last sharpen, or have never had them sharpened (factory grinds are not always great) then show them to someone experienced and get them to check, and to help you understand what blunt and sharp feel like.
Regarding helmets I do not wear one and do not want to, but it's a personal choice and if you think it might help then go for it.  I'm 50something and not very good so I must try not to worry about how I look - don't go down the road of thinking about how you look/how others see you because it will drive you mad and depress you.  There will always be someone better than you.  Most people won't even pay attention to you.  Some people might look down on you, but if you are trying your best then they are the idiot for doing that, not you, no matter how much better they are.  I prefer to judge people by their passion and effort, not their skill.


AndyinSwindon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • When Hell Freezes Over...At least we can skate!
Re: Super Scary (Be Critical Please)
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2017, 05:57:04 am »
don't go down the road of thinking about how you look/how others see you because it will drive you mad and depress you.  There will always be someone better than you.  Most people won't even pay attention to you.  Some people might look down on you, but if you are trying your best then they are the idiot for doing that, not you, no matter how much better they are.  I prefer to judge people by their passion and effort, not their skill.

Absolutely spot on, and that last sentence is probably the most encouraging and worthy comment I have read in a long time!  I wish all skaters had this attitude! 

Kenzie - if you wear a helmet, it won't be a case of all the gear, no idea.  My second learn to play hockey session took place about 3 weeks after I started skating.  I turned up completely kitted out, and barely able to skate, but with enough passion to know that this will change.  Everyone was very supportive and encouraging, and I had no disparaging comments.  The point is, they are my bones to break and bruise, and if I choose to wear protection, that is my choice alone.  If I lose time off work due to injury it will be a much higher cost than my hockey gear.  I don't think the 'all the gear no idea' mentality would apply to wearing a helmet.  I do understand as I was reluctant to pad up on my public skate sessions, thinking people would expect me to know what I'm doing, but nobody paid any attention, and when I chatted to those that did ask if I played, I explained that I was learning and just getting used to the gear, and learning to skate safely.  There was no chirping or negative comments.

In terms of insoles, they will 'travel' with you from skate to skate, so if you upgrade in future, they won't be a lost investment.  If your gear is causing your pain, you will never reach your full potential, and it will turn an enjoyable pastime into a torturous chore.

Finally, on the subject of skate sharpening, I get mine done about every 4-6 weeks.  For the sake of £6 it's worth it.  And don't wait for them to dull right down, as you will end up having to get used to having sharp edges all over again.  I have just had my ROH (the radius of hollow, which affects the depth of grind) changed from 1/2" to 5/8" - I get a better/faster glide, which was a bit scary to start, but it also means stops are easier (though not quite as abrupt) and I have to work my edges a little more.  Contrary to belief, most NHL players (and I wouldn't even begin to compare myself to the pro's, but the information is valid) skate on around 1/2" grinds, not ridiculously deep hollows.  This allows for a good mix of speed and control.  It is possible to have a different cut in different areas of the same blade, but that is way beyond my skill level (and I suspect beyond most people on this forum).
Started skating 07.01.17
Currently working through NISA LTS Levels.
Currently wobbling through hockey LTP sessions.



 

Terms of Use     Privacy Policy